Zhanna Litvina: About ’17 Years on the Throne’, the BAJ ‘Family’, and Her Birthday Shared with Lukashenka…

BAJ’s PERSONAL RECORD

Zhan­na Litv­ina was born in the vil­lage of Vadapoj near Min­sk. She grad­u­at­ed from the jour­nal­ism depart­ment of the Belaru­sian State Uni­ver­si­ty. From 1976 to 1994, she worked at the State Tele­vi­sion and Radio; there, her last posi­tion was the chief edi­tor of Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja radio sta­tion. From 1994 to 1999, she led the Min­sk bureau of Radio Lib­er­ty. She found­ed Radio Racy­ja. In 1995, she found­ed the FM sta­tion 101.2, which last­ed a lit­tle over a year and was closed down by the author­i­ties. In 1995, she found­ed the Belaru­sian Asso­ci­a­tion of Jour­nal­ists which she leads to date.

“Only a selected few are trusted today with the live broadcast”

After the jour­nal­ism depart­ment, you were employed by the State radio. Wasn’t the young girl wor­ried that the entire coun­try would hear her but she wouldn’t be rec­og­nized on the streets?!

Zhan­na Litv­ina: The radio jour­nal­ist can­not become a star… I felt total­ly self-suf­fi­cient in the envi­ron­ment where I was known. Before it was closed, Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja radio sta­tion was at its finest hour. We were known to all politi­cians, pub­lic fig­ures… Because each of them had an oppor­tu­ni­ty to get on the air. What we did not have, it was the censorship’s obsta­cles. This got us burned.

Zianon Paz­ni­ak came to us. Live broad­cast… He was not wel­come at any edi­to­r­i­al team. But we got him on the air, prob­a­bly, due to some jour­nal­is­tic inso­lence… And many things were for­giv­en to us. Inci­den­tal­ly, we anchored the very first live broad­cast with Ihar Han­charuk (lat­er, he head­ed Stal­it­sa radio sta­tion for some time and now he does Top­i­cal Inter­view show on tele­vi­sion from time to time). It was an ordi­nary broad­cast – it was inten­tion­al­ly sched­uled for the very late evening so that as few peo­ple as pos­si­ble could hear it. The text got vet­ted in all offices, it was writ­ten down to the last com­ma… Already after, we were told that the direc­tor of the pro­gram direc­torate (I won’t even tell his name) had come to the edit­ing con­trol room, from where the show was broad­cast and said: “If some­thing is wrong – mix it!”

See, how much time passed, and Vol­s­ki was recent­ly “cut down” on tut.by in the exact­ly same way. How have you react­ed to it? Has it been civ­i­lized?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: You know, if over 20 years ago they had shut down us, pio­neers, who were gasp­ing for the live broad­cast, it would have had some log­ic; we could blame it on Com­mu­nists, on back­ward­ness. And the man­i­fes­ta­tions of cen­sor­ship today… I have some­thing to com­pare it with, and I’m just in shock. Ear­li­er, we had live CNN inserts on the Belaru­sian tele­vi­sion, and Radio 101.2 rebroad­cast­ed BBC and Deutsche Welle live… Now, it all has been destroyed. Only a select­ed few are trust­ed today with the live broad­cast. Today, the cen­sor­ship is much harsh­er than the one which exist­ed dur­ing the Per­e­stroi­ka.

And we look at tut.by as a pri­vate busi­ness? Why should Yury Zis­er risk his own busi­ness so that Vol­s­ki could laugh at Jar­moshy­na? Can we gen­er­al­ly regard our media as a pri­vate busi­ness?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: We have no pri­vate busi­ness in mass media. Speak­ing of the radio, the fre­quen­cies are in pub­lic prop­er­ty, and they can be tak­en back at any moment. I would not also call the news­pa­per a pri­vate busi­ness as, dur­ing the last 12 years, we are wit­ness­ing the grad­ual destruc­tion of the insti­tu­tion of inde­pen­dent media. The edi­tors were dif­fer­ent back then as well… By the way, there is an inter­est­ing phe­nom­e­non today: the news­pa­pers’ edi­tors do not write for their news­pa­pers.

Did you real­ly sit at the micro­phone at Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Ini­tial­ly, yes. But, at some point, I dis­con­tin­ued. Because we had a super free­dom in the edi­to­r­i­al office. How­ev­er, every Tues­day the Cal­vary came – the plan­ning meet­ings began at 10 am. Hien­adz Buraukin already left at that time, and the State Tele­vi­sion and Radio were head­ed by Ali­ak­san­dr Stal­iarou. And every Tues­day I was called up and chas­tised mer­ci­less­ly. We aired a Sat­ur­day morn­ing pro­gram at 9.15 am, a very pop­u­lar one, and I was crit­i­cized every time — “why this, why not that”!.. To sit at the micro­phone, I must be the same as my team. But it could soon lead to the full destruc­tion of the edi­to­r­i­al team. I had to act as a defend­er. It seemed to me that it was more impor­tant than to sit at the micro­phone.

Sure, then you could not tell, “They did it behind my back”.

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I nev­er said that! The prepa­ra­tion for each plan­ning meet­ing was a search for jus­ti­fi­ca­tions: why the jour­nal­ists said this and not that on the air. Dur­ing the plan­ning meet­ing, many col­leagues did not even speak to me in the pres­ence of the man­age­ment. But when the plan­ning meet­ings was over, they used to approach me and express words of sup­port. But they could not get up and say a word [open­ly]…

“Aliaksandr Ryhoravich was spotlighted, with focus on his hair”

But how did you man­age to invite Paz­ni­ak to the State radio?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: It should be borne in mind that Paz­ni­ak was then a mem­ber of par­lia­ment, and it gave us the right to invite him. His every vis­it was a stress. I recall how I was dragged to the pro­gram direc­torate ahead of one of his appear­ances and scold­ed, “this BPF again!” The trick was that we sub­mit­ted the micro­phone fold­er where we indi­cat­ed the name of the invit­ed per­son and the main top­ic of con­ver­sa­tion. And then, the air was the air: peo­ple said what they said.

Although, in the case of Zianon, his very invi­ta­tion on the air was already a chal­lenge and a seri­ous sig­nal to the man­age­ment. I come back from the boss all so des­o­late, then Zianon Stanislavavich arrives, we brew him cof­fee… And here Paz­ni­ak deliv­ers a mono­logue about the cor­rup­tion of jour­nal­ists etc. And I look at him and think, a cou­ple of min­utes more, and I will cry from resent­ment…

Inci­den­tal­ly, Ali­ak­san­dr Ryho­ravich Lukashen­ka was one of the fre­quent guests of the live broad­cast. When a planned guest failed to arrive, we always knew that we could call Lukashen­ka, and he would come and speak with ease on any top­ic. A per­son who talks open­ly about any­thing – this is a god­send for a radio jour­nal­ist! When we cel­e­brat­ed the 30^th anniver­sary of Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja, Ali­ak­san­dr Ryho­ravich was also present at the anniver­sary par­ty. The most amaz­ing thing is that, after the elec­tion cam­paign approached, all pic­tures with guests on them, includ­ing him, dis­ap­peared from my office.

What was your rela­tion­ship then?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Absolute­ly friend­ly. After the reform of the State Tele­vi­sion and Radio and its trans­for­ma­tion in the Belaru­sian Tele­vi­sion and Radio Com­pa­ny, as I remem­ber, there was a cer­e­mo­ny of pre­sen­ta­tion of cer­tifi­cates to the can­di­dates for the pres­i­dent. Before that, Ali­ak­san­dr Dabravol­s­ki came to my office and brought me the ID of the elec­tion agent of Stanis­lau Shushkievich. After the pre­sen­ta­tion of the can­di­dates’ cer­tifi­cates, Ali­ak­san­dr Ryho­ravich saw me, “Oh, Zhan­na, come, we are get­ting togeth­er in this room, come to my team!..” I gave it a thought and even did not both­er to explain to him that I was already Shushkievich’s elec­tion agent. I was great­ly hon­ored to be Shushkievich’s elec­tion agent along­side Hien­adz Buraukin, Vol­ha Ipata­va, Stanis­lau Bah­dankievich and the dis­graced Gen­er­al Jaho­rau!..

… I remem­ber that after the draw Lukashen­ka had the very first live appear­ance. A few oth­er per­sons were invit­ed with Shushkievich for live appear­ances, but Lukashen­ka was accom­pa­nied only by Ali­ak­san­dr Fiadu­ta. The tele­vi­sion is a harsh art. There­fore, Ali­ak­san­dr Ryho­ravich was spot­light­ed, with focus on his hair. And Fiadu­ta was seat­ed side­ways. Every­thing was done to make them look unat­trac­tive. Kiebich was the main star and the oth­ers were blind­ed and seat­ed in a ter­ri­bly unaes­thet­ic way. I remem­ber myself say­ing already dur­ing the very first min­utes of Lukashenka’s appear­ance: “Peo­ple, here is the man who will become the head of state…”

Before the sec­ond round, Fiadu­ta and Sinit­syn were still work­ing upon me, lur­ing to Lukashenka’s side. I even came to the House of Gov­ern­ment – the inten­si­ty of their offers became unbear­able. And I explained to them: yes, my “patron” lost but it was sim­ply impos­si­ble for me to change teams. I won­der why such an offer was made to me.

When you ceased to be the edi­tor-in-chief of Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja, you were left out in the cold for a long time, weren’t you?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I was then offered to take the posi­tion of the edi­tor-in-chief of the youth edi­to­r­i­al office at the tele­vi­sion – pup­pets, children’s sports etc. Dzi­u­ba was then offered the posi­tion of the edi­tor of the Sec­ond Chan­nel of the Belaru­sian radio, and he agreed. At the same time, a con­di­tion was put for­ward that some per­sons would sim­ply have no place at the Belaru­sian tele­vi­sion and radio. I could not stay there because it would be a betray­al. Five or six months lat­er, just on the New Year’s Eve, I ran into Ali­ak­san­dr Stal­iarou. He asked me how I was doing. I said, “I’m doing fine but there is one thing I can’t for­give you…” He even changed his coun­te­nance. And I tell him, “I can’t for­give you that you didn’t kick me off ear­li­er but only now – I would have done much more!” And indeed, dur­ing that peri­od of time before the new regime became ful­ly estab­lished, there was a time dream came true…

“Kiesner calls me, “Zhanna, tee-hee, but we all quit!”

I under­stand that Ali­ak­san­dr Ryho­ravich indi­rect­ly con­tributed to the cre­ation of BAJ?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: In 1995, already at the first con­stituent meet­ing of BAJ, we adopt­ed the first protest state­ment against the expul­sion of such news­pa­pers as Nar­o­d­na­ja Volia, Imia and BDG from the print­ing works. Then, the news­pa­pers moved to Vil­nius for print­ing because at that time there were no such restric­tions at the bor­der, and they could be freely brought to Belarus. Next, Decem­ber came, and there were white spots in news­pa­pers in the place of Antonchyk’s anti-cor­rup­tion report… But then Zvi­az­da, Sovet­skaya Belorus­siya and some oth­er pub­li­ca­tions were print­ed with white spots – they still had courage. There was a ban on print­ing the report, but the edi­to­r­i­al offices decid­ed to leave the white spots. At that time, there still was no such sep­a­ra­tion: ours – not ours, us – them… The jour­nal­ists were equal and clean­er. Although, they already began tight­en­ing the screws at the tele­vi­sion with­out Buraukin…

And when you start­ed your job at the State radio, was Buraukin already the boss there?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No, he was appoint­ed lat­er.

What changed?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: First of all, the lan­guage. The [Belaru­sian] lan­guage was present on the radio before but with the arrival of Buraukin, it expand­ed unprece­dent­ed­ly on the tele­vi­sion… Hien­adz Mikala­je­vich has a unique gift of nature – the abil­i­ty to spot a tal­ent and to respect the tal­ent. Under Buraukin, such peo­ple were giv­en the oppor­tu­ni­ty for self-real­iza­tion. By the way, it was already Buraukin who appoint­ed me to the posi­tion of the edi­tor-in-chief of Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja. When I was appoint­ed, I was the youngest per­son to occu­py this posi­tion. But even ten years lat­er, when I was fired and I was almost 40, I still remained the youngest!

And Buraukin, when he appoint­ed you, did he give you the free hand – “do what you want”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No free hand. It should be borne in mind that that the sys­tem was still sol­id. He sim­ply trust­ed us and allowed us to do what our young team saw fit.

You once told that you were afraid to even enter Buraukin’s office. Was he that hard?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Always busy, always con­cen­trat­ed! I told him not so long ago that I had been afraid of him. Hien­adz Mikala­je­vich laughed for a long time: “Zhan­na! Be afraid? Of me?! Why should any­one be afraid of me?!”

But you were a boss as well! How many sub­or­di­nates did you have?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: When we quit, there were eigh­teen of us. Each of us was sum­moned indi­vid­u­al­ly and offered to stay; we were promised all kind of ben­e­fits and posi­tions. I came in our “news­room” across from the front desk and said, “Peo­ple, you should think seri­ous­ly. You are on the wait­ing list for hous­ing, half of the team live in the dorms. What will you do tomor­row, where will you seek a piece of bread?” And I left. Almost every­body refused to get trans­ferred to anoth­er office. They asked Kies­ner to call Litv­ina. Kies­ner calls me, “Zhan­na, tee-hee, but we all quit!”

To me, it was a shock! At that moment, I had no idea where I could find a job… I qui­et­ly con­sult­ed peo­ple about where I could go and work as an adver­tis­ing agent or an edi­tor… But then, when they all quit, they made me a per­son­al­i­ty, and I have always empha­sized that. When you are alone, it is very sim­ple for you. And in this sit­u­a­tion, it was like at Exupéry’s, when you need to sur­vive and to get there because they are wait­ing for you. Vital Siamashka’s phrase was spin­ning in my head, “Zhan­na, you can­not be dif­fer­ent already…”

“This is the same as to live in a family with a wife and have a mistress at the same time”

Then, your team quit in sol­i­dar­i­ty with you as well as because they did not want to work for the State radio any longer. Today, we hear some­times that nor­mal peo­ple also work in odi­ous state media. After so many years, too?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I think, yes. Only these peo­ple have been forced into a par­tic­u­lar spe­cif­ic niche. This is the same as to live in a fam­i­ly with a wife and have a mis­tress at the same time. Although I think that there are many con­vinced peo­ple among jour­nal­ists, espe­cial­ly from the new gen­er­a­tion, who sin­cere­ly believe in all this. And per­haps, there is also a share of prag­ma­tism there. But the cun­ning insin­cere oppor­tunists – this is more despi­ca­ble…

OK, but if a per­son takes a job in Sovet­skaya Belorus­siya after the clo­sure of, say, BDG, and he or she says, “But I’m writ­ing about sports (cul­ture, arts…)”. And mean­while, they pub­lish “Iron on glass” at the adja­cent page. Who are they, these per­sons?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I wouldn’t take such a cat­e­gor­i­cal stance. Because every­one makes a choice one day. And when you talk to each one indi­vid­u­al­ly… For exam­ple, I had a shock about Liud­mi­la Masliuko­va. She was a friend of Shchukin, in such oppo­si­tion to the regime, wrote a lot for Nar­o­d­na­ja Volia!.. And sud­den­ly, she finds her­self in Sovet­skaya Belorus­siya and begins to write the exact oppo­site… Some peo­ple explained this by a dif­fi­cult fam­i­ly sit­u­a­tion. But I don’t under­stand such things – I believe that they are inex­cus­able. Here the lim­its of pro­fes­sion­al integri­ty were crossed.

You were also called to come to the oth­er side, they promised to you that you would be hunky dory. If we reject pre­ten­tious words, what held you off?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I was offered to take a posi­tion in the infor­ma­tion ser­vice of the tele­vi­sion. But it was unac­cept­able in the new con­di­tions. And it also helped that I already had an offer to lead the Belaru­sian bureau of Radio Lib­er­ty. Con­science. And people’s atti­tude. It is very impor­tant what peo­ple whom I respect think about me. Per­haps, this is my Achilles’ heel. To me, it is very impor­tant to stay who I am and not to give grounds for some doubts and mis­trust.

“When the newspapers began closing down, their editors felt that they remained alone with their editorial teams”

When you head­ed Radio Lib­er­ty, in which con­di­tions did it exist here in the coun­try? Was the bureau accred­it­ed?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No we sim­ply rent­ed an apart­ment. But then they were seri­ous nego­ti­a­tions with Shushkievich (when he was the speak­er) about rebroad­cast­ing the radio in Belarus. At that time, it just took place in Rus­sia and in Ukraine. But Radio Lib­er­ty failed to get this autho­riza­tion in our coun­try.

In your opin­ion, why, dur­ing this long time of pres­sure on inde­pen­dent mass media, did they get at every­body except Radio Lib­er­ty?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Good ques­tion. Maybe, because it is a brand… Maybe, a habit. Should I now look for oth­er rea­sons? Then, one should find out why the jour­nal­ists of Euro­ra­dio received the accred­i­ta­tion but not Radio Racy­ja.

In gen­er­al, those inde­pen­dent mass media which sur­vived until today, how dan­ger­ous are they for the author­i­ties?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: This ques­tion is not how dan­ger­ous. Just think how much Nar­o­d­na­ja Volia expe­ri­enced, for exam­ple. Iosif Paulavich (how­ev­er dif­fi­cult he might be), what­ev­er the trou­ble was com­ing, any­way, he was sav­ing his pub­li­ca­tion and man­aged to stay his ground. Our region­al pub­li­ca­tions are also vet­er­ans. When the news­pa­pers began clos­ing down, they felt that they remained alone with their edi­to­r­i­al teams. What­ev­er state­ments were adopt­ed, what­ev­er the Inter­na­tion­al Fed­er­a­tion of Jour­nal­ists said – any­way, it was your prob­lem, which you had to solve on your own. Per­haps, this is what caus­es self-cen­sor­ship and cau­tion in arti­cles and reprints. And anoth­er thing – they are very near their local author­i­ties, which can do to them any­thing at any time. It is eas­i­er for nation­al pub­li­ca­tions in Min­sk.

They got used to pub­li­ca­tions, and now there is man­hunt for peo­ple who are able to seek and present infor­ma­tion. The case of Surapin is just sav­age! The very fact that he was arrest­ed for pub­li­ca­tion of his pho­tos is unprece­dent­ed. A war with a pic­ture! The same as police­men at ral­lies say in their radios, “Don’t let them take pic­tures”. I also was shocked at the ral­lies, which I call the “applause ral­lies” when the jour­nal­ists were pres­sured because they had cam­eras – not to let them make pic­tures!

Why? Is it because the pic­ture will get abroad and will again defame our “ves­sel”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Abroad as well, yes. But also here, so that it doesn’t irri­tate, doesn’t stir up pub­lic opin­ion… Recent­ly, how­ev­er, Juli­ja Darashkievich said that the police­men wit­ness­es had not said dur­ing the court hear­ings that she had been swear­ing and wav­ing her arms…

“I get a toothache from today’s FM stations”

Did you quit Radio Lib­er­ty because of Radio Racy­ja?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Yes, because Radio Racy­ja was my baby, and it would be incom­pat­i­ble fur­ther on. The first broad­casts began, and I had to take care of the new radio, with the help from Nina Barshcheuska­ja, from the Belaru­sian ser­vice of the Pol­ish Radio. Because the pilot pro­grams were broad­cast by the Pol­ish Radio’s trans­mit­ter: Dzi­ma Novikau, the cur­rent head of the Euro­pean Radio, was bring­ing the first pro­grams on VCR cas­settes to Nina Barshcheuska­ja. She seri­ous­ly helped us, and I’m grate­ful to her for life.

I recall Tat­st­siana Miel­nichuk say­ing that she has been miss­ing the radio which is steadi­ly dis­ap­pear­ing. Do you miss it?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I’m in love with the radio which was mine. I don’t lis­ten today to the FM radio, to me, they are speak­ing with the same voic­es, this mean­ing­less bark­ing at absolute­ly all the sta­tions trig­gers neg­a­tive and sad emo­tions in me. I get a toothache from that! Only Stal­it­sa stands out with its Belaru­sian lan­guage.

Speak­ing of the clo­sure of Radio 101.2, you said that it had been impos­si­ble to antic­i­pate this clo­sure. And to pre­vent it? “Be care­ful”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Then, it wouldn’t be Radio 101.2.

Today, when there is no pos­si­bil­i­ty to lis­ten freely, why do the three radio sta­tions (the Euro­pean Radio, Radio Lib­er­ty and Radio Racy­ja) need to get on the air?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Per­haps, it is to ensure some audio pres­ence online… Although, many peo­ple are hard­ly sit­ting and lis­ten­ing to some­thing online… Per­son­al­ly, I don’t have enough time for this… But hands off the holy! The radio is the radio! My heart bleeds that we have not been able to do a sin­gle real radio project here… Here, local­ly, in Belarus! While there is Echo of Moscow! But here they did not let us do some­thing like this.

What is the phe­nom­e­non of Echo of Moscow?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: They have a rea­son­able infor­ma­tion pol­i­cy.

Prob­a­bly, they are just less sti­fled there…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: For the time being…

By the way, besides dif­fi­cul­ties with obtain­ing infor­ma­tion, what oth­er prob­lems do our jour­nal­ists face?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Edu­ca­tion. In order to get it, you need to have tal­ent. It is good that there is still some oppor­tu­ni­ty for edu­ca­tion thanks to the Swedish Insti­tute FOJO. But more…

That is, you don’t take into account the jour­nal­ism depart­ment at all…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I don’t know the today’s depart­ment – this answer will be just the cor­rect one.

Did it make you a jour­nal­ist?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I think it didn’t. But the fact that I had this diplo­ma allowed me to come to the jour­nal­ism.

At the last Con­gress of BAJ you were re-elect­ed as chair­per­son. Aren’t you tired of these claims that you are “sit­ting for so long on the throne, like Lukashen­ka”?!

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Lukashen­ka did not cre­ate sov­er­eign Belarus. I have a bit more “author’s rights” on BAJ (laugh­ing)… In the morn­ing of the Congress’s first day, I did not know whether I would stay, reserv­ing the right to say good­bye right in the meet­ing room. The film of the Belaru­sian TV gave a strong impe­tus, then, there was this mail­ing ahead of the Con­gress, the ban on trav­el abroad – it dealt the final blow… Some are dealt with this way, oth­ers – anoth­er way… They want me to feel sick­ly so that I wept bit­ter tears and quit. No, it won’t hap­pen this way. Although, yet in win­ter, I was sure that it would be my last Con­gress and I would leave.

And who can lead the orga­ni­za­tion?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Per­haps, one con­tender is Andrei Bas­tu­ni­ets. Or Starykievich. They could eas­i­ly become [chair­per­sons]. The main thing is the office and the team behind. And why not Kalink­i­na?

“Do you know what else Belaru­sian jour­nal­ists didn’t do?”

Don’t you regret that you don’t work now as a jour­nal­ist but only as an admin­is­tra­tor?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I regret it very much! Although, it would be dif­fi­cult today to pic­ture Litv­ina becom­ing a reporter…

Would you like to lead an edi­to­r­i­al team?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I’d like to be involved in a struc­ture involved in broad­cast­ing. Because the radio remains my unful­filled dream.

But we already agreed that the broad­cast­ing is dead!

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No, the time of broad­cast­ing is yet to come. But would I have the strength to start all over…

“Echo of Belarus”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: It would be nice!.. Do you know what else Belaru­sian jour­nal­ists didn’t do? We have not writ­ten the his­to­ry of our jour­nal­ism of the last 20 years – at least from the estab­lish­ment of the country’s sov­er­eign­ty. This is our oblig­a­tion – those who lived through it – to write it. This is his­to­ry already, some­times leg­endary, and this should not dis­ap­pear. Because peo­ple go away: Ihar Hier­mi­anchuk, Tat­st­siana Sapach, Uladz­imir Babary­ka, Vital Taras… And they should remain in his­to­ry. But what to say when even entire pub­li­ca­tions dis­ap­peared; it is a whole lay­er which should also remain!

It turns out that, on the one hand, it was every­day life as the jour­nal­ists serve today’s soci­ety in the present time. But, on the oth­er hand, this could be inter­est­ing because this is his­to­ry already. Although I remem­ber how we laughed a bit at some elder­ly pro­fes­sors at the jour­nal­ism depart­ment who had been doing some­thing once…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Rare jour­nal­is­tic work is “imper­ish­able”. Because the jour­nal­ism exists and devel­ops in a very spe­cif­ic envi­ron­ment, which it reflects. The jour­nal­ism is inter­est­ing today. Dur­ing the Per­e­stroi­ka peo­ple tore to pieces Ogonyok and read it to tat­ters. Would you read it today with inter­est? Only if you real­ly force your­self. The era is gone. I myself some­times see how peo­ple grab Nar­o­d­na­ja Volia and imme­di­ate­ly look for an arti­cle by Kalink­i­na on the first page. Twen­ty years lat­er, and for a stu­dent of the jour­nal­ism depart­ment it will be unknown peo­ple, unknown con­text. They will not under­stand how we man­aged to live and work in this sit­u­a­tion. I believe they will not under­stand many pub­li­ca­tions by our col­leagues.

If I may go back to the top­ic of your eter­nal chair­per­son­ship and pos­si­ble suc­ces­sors. Have you man­aged to build a sys­tem, which is not ful­ly depen­dent on you only? Will not all the projects and agree­ments per­ish when you quit?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No way! There is no monop­oly in BAJ while it may seem oth­er­wise from out­side. I con­duct impor­tant meet­ings at the inter­na­tion­al lev­el because I am the leader. In the same way, the future lead­ers of BAJ will con­duct them. The most impor­tant is not to allow destroy­ing the orga­ni­za­tion and not to fall apart from with­in. If we stay togeth­er, any­one could replace Litv­ina.

You said that that mail­ing before the Con­gress made you mad. But you have seen it all! How could such a stu­pid provo­ca­tion enrage you so much?

Zhan­na Litv­ina:  The provo­ca­tions are specif­i­cal­ly cal­cu­lat­ed to catch unawares and “knock out” a per­son.

Also, it sur­prised me that in the film “Bash on BAJ” you had talked to that girl who was run­ning after you as a small dog. Why do this?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I can tell you how it hap­pened. Usu­al­ly, after Decem­ber 19, I don’t answer the inter­com or open the door if I don’t expect any­body. An hour before I went out of the house, there was a call on the inter­com. I thought, who would need any­thing? The, I went out to go to BAJ and after­wards – it was on Decem­ber 18 – to go to the ceme­tery because it was an anniver­sary of Vital Taras’s death. I was walk­ing absorbed in all these thoughts and mem­o­ries. And then there was this effect of sur­prise, they hawked on me. My first reac­tion was – “I won’t talk to you” because I saw the micro­phone of the Belaru­sian tele­vi­sion. It was cold, I was in a hood – and they were pok­ing a micro­phone at me. Sure­ly, Hihin had a dif­fer­ent reac­tion to Radio Lib­er­ty (when he was asked to com­ment on the ted­dy bear air­drop… (smil­ing) I could not afford it. Inci­den­tal­ly, this Shu­man­ska­ja erased the end part of our inter­view. Because the trol­ley bus arrived, and the last ques­tion was, “What do you think: even my class­mates are work­ing in your office. Why are some work­ing in BAJ and oth­ers on the tele­vi­sion, as myself?” Then, I final­ly pulled myself togeth­er and said, “Because some are doing their pro­fes­sion and the oth­ers, a provo­ca­tion”. Sure­ly, it was delet­ed. So, that was the effect of sur­prise… Although I pulled myself togeth­er and did not start find­ing out what kind of doc­u­ment she had there etc. What I can­not for­give myself is that I was answer­ing in Russ­ian.

Why didn’t you bring to the court the case of this “ther­a­pist” who was dis­cussing your move­ments and near­ly made a diag­no­sis on you?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I even retained a lawyer… But one thing after anoth­er… How­ev­er, there is no statute of lim­i­ta­tions in such cas­es so Miat­siel­s­ki will still get it one day. A ther­a­pist, you bet: I wig­gled my fin­gers, so I was think­ing about mon­ey!

“Do you know what else Belarusian journalists didn’t do?”

Don’t you regret that you don’t work now as a jour­nal­ist but only as an admin­is­tra­tor?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I regret it very much! Although, it would be dif­fi­cult today to pic­ture Litv­ina becom­ing a reporter…

Would you like to lead an edi­to­r­i­al team?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I’d like to be involved in a struc­ture involved in broad­cast­ing. Because the radio remains my unful­filled dream.

But we already agreed that the broad­cast­ing is dead!

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No, the time of broad­cast­ing is yet to come. But would I have the strength to start all over…

“Echo of Belarus”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: It would be nice!.. Do you know what else Belaru­sian jour­nal­ists didn’t do? We have not writ­ten the his­to­ry of our jour­nal­ism of the last 20 years – at least from the estab­lish­ment of the country’s sov­er­eign­ty. This is our oblig­a­tion – those who lived through it – to write it. This is his­to­ry already, some­times leg­endary, and this should not dis­ap­pear. Because peo­ple go away: Ihar Hier­mi­anchuk, Tat­st­siana Sapach, Uladz­imir Babary­ka, Vital Taras… And they should remain in his­to­ry. But what to say when even entire pub­li­ca­tions dis­ap­peared; it is a whole lay­er which should also remain!

It turns out that, on the one hand, it was every­day life as the jour­nal­ists serve today’s soci­ety in the present time. But, on the oth­er hand, this could be inter­est­ing because this is his­to­ry already. Although I remem­ber how we laughed a bit at some elder­ly pro­fes­sors at the jour­nal­ism depart­ment who had been doing some­thing once…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Rare jour­nal­is­tic work is “imper­ish­able”. Because the jour­nal­ism exists and devel­ops in a very spe­cif­ic envi­ron­ment, which it reflects. The jour­nal­ism is inter­est­ing today. Dur­ing the Per­e­stroi­ka peo­ple tore to pieces Ogonyok and read it to tat­ters. Would you read it today with inter­est? Only if you real­ly force your­self. The era is gone. I myself some­times see how peo­ple grab Nar­o­d­na­ja Volia and imme­di­ate­ly look for an arti­cle by Kalink­i­na on the first page. Twen­ty years lat­er, and for a stu­dent of the jour­nal­ism depart­ment it will be unknown peo­ple, unknown con­text. They will not under­stand how we man­aged to live and work in this sit­u­a­tion. I believe they will not under­stand many pub­li­ca­tions by our col­leagues.

If I may go back to the top­ic of your eter­nal chair­per­son­ship and pos­si­ble suc­ces­sors. Have you man­aged to build a sys­tem, which is not ful­ly depen­dent on you only? Will not all the projects and agree­ments per­ish when you quit?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No way! There is no monop­oly in BAJ while it may seem oth­er­wise from out­side. I con­duct impor­tant meet­ings at the inter­na­tion­al lev­el because I am the leader. In the same way, the future lead­ers of BAJ will con­duct them. The most impor­tant is not to allow destroy­ing the orga­ni­za­tion and not to fall apart from with­in. If we stay togeth­er, any­one could replace Litv­ina.

You said that that mail­ing before the Con­gress made you mad. But you have seen it all! How could such a stu­pid provo­ca­tion enrage you so much?

Zhan­na Litv­ina:  The provo­ca­tions are specif­i­cal­ly cal­cu­lat­ed to catch unawares and “knock out” a per­son.

Also, it sur­prised me that in the film “Bash on BAJ” you had talked to that girl who was run­ning after you as a small dog. Why do this?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I can tell you how it hap­pened. Usu­al­ly, after Decem­ber 19, I don’t answer the inter­com or open the door if I don’t expect any­body. An hour before I went out of the house, there was a call on the inter­com. I thought, who would need any­thing? The, I went out to go to BAJ and after­wards – it was on Decem­ber 18 – to go to the ceme­tery because it was an anniver­sary of Vital Taras’s death. I was walk­ing absorbed in all these thoughts and mem­o­ries. And then there was this effect of sur­prise, they hawked on me. My first reac­tion was – “I won’t talk to you” because I saw the micro­phone of the Belaru­sian tele­vi­sion. It was cold, I was in a hood – and they were pok­ing a micro­phone at me. Sure­ly, Hihin had a dif­fer­ent reac­tion to Radio Lib­er­ty (when he was asked to com­ment on the ted­dy bear air­drop… (smil­ing) I could not afford it. Inci­den­tal­ly, this Shu­man­ska­ja erased the end part of our inter­view. Because the trol­ley bus arrived, and the last ques­tion was, “What do you think: even my class­mates are work­ing in your office. Why are some work­ing in BAJ and oth­ers on the tele­vi­sion, as myself?” Then, I final­ly pulled myself togeth­er and said, “Because some are doing their pro­fes­sion and the oth­ers, a provo­ca­tion”. Sure­ly, it was delet­ed. So, that was the effect of sur­prise… Although I pulled myself togeth­er and did not start find­ing out what kind of doc­u­ment she had there etc. What I can­not for­give myself is that I was answer­ing in Russ­ian.

Why didn’t you bring to the court the case of this “ther­a­pist” who was dis­cussing your move­ments and near­ly made a diag­no­sis on you?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I even retained a lawyer… But one thing after anoth­er… How­ev­er, there is no statute of lim­i­ta­tions in such cas­es so Miat­siel­s­ki will still get it one day. A ther­a­pist, you bet: I wig­gled my fin­gers, so I was think­ing about mon­ey!

Here just a few items from the famous col­lec­tion of frogs

“I am ter­ri­bly afraid of my birth­day”

As I under­stand, two things are relat­ed to your birth­day. The first one, you were born on the same day and in the same year as Lukashen­ka. I don’t want to dis­cuss it the umpteenth time. The oth­er thing is that you’re avoid­ing this date because mis­for­tunes pur­sue you on this exact day…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I am ter­ri­bly afraid of this day. When it starts, I usu­al­ly think of one thing – let it be over as soon as pos­si­ble so that no trou­ble hap­pens again. It start­ed when I was 30 years old. On the eve of my birth­day, my pre­de­ces­sor in Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja, Edi­tor-in-chief Ivan Iosi­favich Sadous­ki, had an acci­dent. He died just on August 30. The clo­sure of Radio 101.2 also hap­pened on August 30, at the end of the day, at about 4 pm. We receive a let­ter from the Min­istry of Com­mu­ni­ca­tions, which informed us that our trans­mit­ter was cre­at­ing some tech­ni­cal inter­fer­ences. Although the min­istry itself had placed it in that loca­tion and they were ser­vic­ing it. But they warned us that August 31 will be the last day of Radio 101.2’s broad­cast… Just recent­ly, three years ago, on that day, Dzi­ma Parfi­novich died, a true friend and an employ­ee of our office. Such “coin­ci­dences” scare me.

Rank-and-file mem­bers of BAJ knew Dzmit­ry Parfi­novich as your dri­ver. Did he have oth­er duties?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: We met with him a long ago in an absolute­ly incred­i­ble way – when we were indeed look­ing for a dri­ver. In 1995, when the orga­ni­za­tion was just being cre­at­ed and we reg­is­tered BM-Infarm JSC, I was rid­ing in a taxi and I absolute­ly hap­haz­ard­ly asked the dri­ver whether he knew some­one from his car com­pa­ny who would want to go work as a dri­ver of a pri­vate car. He said that he would think about it. Two days lat­er, Dzi­ma Parfi­novich called my num­ber, we met, and since then, he was in BAJ. His incred­i­ble reli­a­bil­i­ty made him a well-respect­ed and loved per­son in BAJ, he became an assis­tant and a friend.

«To go to the city” meant «to get washed in a bathtub»!

The vil­lage of Vadapoj, where you were born – does it still exist?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Our house, when we sold it in 1990, was the last one – every­thing around it was aban­doned. Vadapoj is just near Min­sk, about six kilo­me­ters from Sokal through the for­est.

Why have you sold your par­ents’ home?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Because it was unbear­able. I was jok­ing­ly say­ing at that time that I would love peo­ple more and hate them less some­times if I did not have that house. You come home and see that gar­den­ers had dis­man­tled your chim­ney… The pad­locks were knocked down from doors, in the mid­dle of the house there were dirt and traces of a motor­cy­cle… That’s why we sold this house, I may say, the native cor­ner, for a few pen­nies. The new own­er took it apart and took it away. It was the last house in the vil­lage of Vadapoj…

The vil­lage just on the out­skirts of Min­sk. Did you feel like almost a Min­sk dweller or still a rus­tic wench?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I just felt that my heart was there, that I loved this place infi­nite­ly. I had a few girl­friends in the vil­lage, we had our own world, our com­pa­ny, and I could not imag­ine that it could be bet­ter some­place else… My mother’s broth­ers had been also bring­ing their chil­dren there, so we had a big com­pa­ny! Min­sk still remained a “city”. «To go to the city” meant «to get washed in a bath­tub»! (laugh­ing)

Your father was the famous artist painter Mikalaj Zalozny. And your moth­er?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: She was a teacher – first, in the Belaru­sian and then the Russ­ian lan­guage… And, by the way, my father’s works are exhib­it­ed in our Art’s Muse­um and in the Tretyakov Gallery…

I know that your sis­ter have also became an artist painter. And you haven’t, why?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: God gave me no tal­ent!

I know that your sis­ter, Natal­lia Zaloz­na­ja, moved to Brus­sels. How did it hap­pen?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Absolute­ly hon­est­ly, by hard work, by tal­ent – it hap­pened 12 years ago. Before that, they tried to live in the Nether­lands but came back home. After that, a gallery man­ag­er invit­ed some Belaru­sian artists to go live there on quite unfa­vor­able terms. He had a few gal­leries and he guar­an­teed a cer­tain income on the con­di­tion that the artist paint­ed a cer­tain num­ber of paint­ings a year. Then, he got tired of this busi­ness and he closed down his gal­leries. But my rel­a­tives were able to gain a foothold there and they stayed. Now, their works are sold there in gal­leries, they don’t stand on a square with a pen­cil. Though, cer­tain­ly, as the cri­sis began, peo­ple began to buy art last of all…

Don’t they spec­u­late that they came from a “bloody regime”?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: God for­bid!.. Art does not have a nation­al­i­ty there… By the way, I, as the chair­per­son of BAJ, nev­er give any rec­om­men­da­tions to doubt­ful refugees. I’ve seen enough how my sis­ter and her hus­band were get­ting on their feet. Even now, they have dif­fi­cul­ties to sur­vive from the finan­cial point of view: they repay loans to give edu­ca­tion to their son… So, some are offend­ed that I don’t give ref­er­ence let­ters to “polit­i­cal migrants”. Because there are true and false vic­tims.

“I know what it means “the soul hurts” – for me, it is absolutely physical feel”

Please par­don the tact­less ques­tion but I know you had a broth­er.

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Yes, I also had a broth­er, and when he was 10 years old, there was a ter­ri­ble tragedy and he died… Nobody hap­pens to have a stel­lar life, with­out tragedies, with­out loss­es. There are loss­es when your soul hurts. I know what it means “the soul hurts” – for me, it is absolute­ly phys­i­cal feel, when I feel a pain in the solar plexus. This is the hard­est pain, it goes away only with time. That tragedy, the death of the broth­er is one of such loss­es. And my fam­i­ly lived with this loss all the time as long as my mom and dad were alive. It is not true that it sub­sides over time – a trace remains. Some­times, I think that peo­ple, who are yet to expe­ri­ence such tragedy, have not under­gone their probe from God. Peo­ple who have expe­ri­enced such pain are more sin­cere in life, they are able to empathize and to respond to mis­for­tune and pain of anoth­er per­son.

Zhan­na Mikala­je­u­na, how did it hap­pen?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: …The tragedy hap­pened in 1959, I was 5 years old then. Chil­dren almost the same age as my broth­er secret­ly took a gun from adults in the hunt­ing field. One may call this an acci­dent… But it remained for the entire life… Nobody aimed at him on pur­pose, it was an absolute­ly ran­dom bul­let – right through to the heart… Although I was very young, I remem­ber how my father brought my broth­er from the for­est in his hands… And I remem­ber how he was hug­ging me strong­ly, sim­ply squeez­ing me then…

“For 18 years, I lived at the corner of Karl Marx and Volodarskiy streets – now, there is a bread shop there”

Did you express­ly want your dacha to be sit­u­at­ed in a vil­lage?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: It was clear that becom­ing a mem­ber of a gar­den­ing co-oper­a­tive and buy­ing a dacha there would not replace that plea­sure when you are one on one with nature, when you observe it… For me, a vil­lage is a place where you stay with your thoughts, where you can dream, where you “grow back your nerves”. So, there was no ques­tion of a dacha, we kept look­ing for a house in a vil­lage. And then, we stopped quite by acci­dent on the way to anoth­er place and asked whether some­one was sell­ing a house there. It was in 1990, I was the edi­tor at Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja.

You said that you even had to bor­row mon­ey to buy this house…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: At that time, it cost 5,000 rubles. Clear­ly, it was more than today’s $5,000. Recent­ly, a house was sold in our vil­lage for $25,000, for exam­ple… My moth­er gave us her “funer­al” mon­ey, Ali­ak­siej and I had our wed­ding gift of 1,000 rubles, we bor­rowed 1,000 rubles from Aliaksiej’s rel­a­tives, and in this way, we were rais­ing mon­ey for the house. It was the same thing with the apart­ment. For 18 years, I lived at the cor­ner of Karl Marx and Volo­darskiy streets – now, there is a bread shop there. Six win­dows just above the pave­ment – it was our apart­ment for 18 years. And Litvin was com­ing there as my fiancé. When we got mar­ried, we lived there. And my father was still wait­ing when they would build the “artists’ house” on Surhana­va Street. There were already five of us in the apart­ment, my father was at the head of the queue to move out of that base­ment. So, he got a three-bed­room apart­ment. Then, my sis­ter got mar­ried, every­one want­ed to live sep­a­rate­ly… Final­ly, we exchanged this three-bed­room place for small­er apart­ments.

I addi­tion to col­lect­ing frogs, I see that you have a great pas­sion – the gar­den-beds with cucum­bers and car­rots… Many are used to see­ing you in a suit, at a micro­phone in the grand­stands. And here it turns out that Litv­ina is dig­ging in the ground, grub­bing up weeds!

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Here are the “famil­iar strangers”! (laugh­ing) Prob­a­bly, many of us have such a mis­match of the “offi­cial” image with the true appear­ance…

But you don’t restrict your­self to the gar­den-beds – do you go to the sea­side?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Yes, but you can go to the vil­lage almost every week­end, and the hol­i­day is very short – 10–12 days. We go to our dacha right up to the begin­ning of the win­ter, but not in the win­ter, because it is very cold in the house… And the gar­den-beds are not an end in itself, it is just a way to stay fit. To work on the gar­den-beds is a very sin­cere desire, I long for the land since Vadapoj. I am attract­ed to this house because I have an over­load of peo­ple and prob­lems… Peo­ple rarely come to BAJ to share their joy. It just so hap­pens that peo­ple come with prob­lems. And so many peo­ple with prob­lems just start to eat you out. There­fore, to escape for a few days is a sal­va­tion. Every­one needs a “donor nutri­tion”. I have found it here.

“Maybe, I would not want some of the BAJ members to be in the same place where my soul is”

It seemed to me that for you the dacha is a very inti­mate space where you don’t allow every­one. On what basis do you decide whom to allow? For exam­ple, have every­one from BAJ been at your dacha?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: 1,200 peo­ple? Cer­tain­ly not! Maybe, I would not want some of the BAJ mem­bers to be in the same place where my soul is. Although those peo­ple, with whom I have been work­ing side by side, who are close to me in spir­it, whom I con­sid­er being friends – they are always wel­come there.

You said a very inter­est­ing thing! It turns out that there are peo­ple in BAJ whom you would rather not see at your dacha?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I think that such peo­ple hap­pen in every person’s life.

It is one thing – in someone’s life, but the oth­er thing – in an orga­ni­za­tion, which you lead.

Zhan­na Litv­ina: You caught me!.. (laugh­ing). For some­one, I should still remain just a func­tionary. When there are too much sin­cer­i­ty and open­ness – it is just sil­ly. Every per­son must have some piece of the soul where not all the doors are open.

What have you and your hus­band done at your dacha with your own hands, and what have you hired oth­er peo­ple to do?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: What we have been able to do with­out pay­ing mon­ey, we have done with our own hands. In some cas­es, it was just a crowd of Litvin’s friends. For exam­ple, they poured con­crete for the foun­da­tion – my job was just to cook three times a day and wash the dish­es. Aliaksiej’s rel­a­tives bat­tened the house inside; they came from the Stolin dis­trict express­ly to do this.

In addi­tion to the gar­den-beds, do you do some­thing else oth­ers can­not imag­ine you could do? Maybe, you knit socks in front of the TV?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No, I don’t know how to knit nor sew. I believe that nature is the source where I accu­mu­late ener­gy and restore my forces. Where I can be alone.

“I can’t imagine having another husband!”

I read in one of your inter­views that you first heard and only then saw your hus­band…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Some­times, I say to him that the nor­mal peo­ple meet at a danc­ing par­ty, some­where in a restau­rant or in a dorm. And you and I met in a library!.. After grad­u­at­ing from the his­to­ry depart­ment, he served in the Inte­ri­or Troops for two years. And he was still going to the library – it was the Kupalauska­ja library on Volo­darskiy Str., near the sta­di­um. It was strange to see an offi­cer in field uni­form, in boots, and with a stack of books. My girl­friend and I start­ed to gig­gle. And lat­er, I spent much time in the library, and this man as well. So, this acquain­tance hap­pened by chance. We got mar­ried a year lat­er.

Did you already grad­u­ate from the uni­ver­si­ty at that time?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: No, I got mar­ried in my 4^th year of the uni­ver­si­ty… And there was anoth­er small detail. When I told him my name, he replied, “Оh! My niece was born two days ago, and she was called Zhan­na!”

That’s all it was inter­est­ing in your his­to­ry of love?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: It was just like that…

So what, the mil­i­tary men don’t court women?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: This mil­i­tary man had a uni­ver­si­ty behind him! And these were the first months of his ser­vice.

And why was he enlist­ed in the army after the uni­ver­si­ty? He should have under­gone the reserve train­ing as a max­i­mum.

Zhan­na Litv­ina: Because it was one of the offers for his post­grad­u­ate work assign­ment — to do the mil­i­tary ser­vice. And he agreed because he did not want to go any­where. Lat­er, he got the posi­tion of a junior researcher at the Insti­tute of Par­ty His­to­ry. And after­wards, over many years, Ali­ak­siej found enough mate­ri­als in the archives for his entire life! By the way, I used to find myself in a sit­u­a­tion, which pleased my feel­ings a lot. When we appeared with Ali­ak­siej in pub­lic, and he was told, “So, is Litv­ina your wife?!” Or vice ver­sa, “So, Litvin is your hus­band?!” It is a thrill when two per­sons are devel­op­ing in par­al­lel, self-suf­fi­cient­ly, with­out inter­fer­ing with each oth­er, and live togeth­er for so long. I can’t imag­ine hav­ing anoth­er hus­band! And I thank God for this. On Octo­ber 5, we will cel­e­brate the 38^th anniver­sary of our mar­riage. We don’t have chil­dren – and some­times I think that if we had them, I would have behaved very dif­fer­ent­ly. Because in our sit­u­a­tion chil­dren some­times become hostages – as it hap­pened to Iry­na Khalip, for exam­ple. And, like every woman, I would not be able to step over it.

Your hus­band is a renowned his­to­ri­an…

Zhan­na Litv­ina: For over 20 years Ali­ak­siej has been work­ing as the head of the Mil­i­tary His­to­ry depart­ment of the Insti­tute of His­to­ry at the Acad­e­my of Sci­ences. When I was already the edi­tor at Belaruska­ja Mal­adziozh­na­ja, as soon as I got a mil­i­tary top­ic in a pro­gram, and I had doubts about what hap­pened, and where, and when… Espe­cial­ly if it was about some gueril­la brigade that was some­where in the woods… I then called Litvin, and you didn’t need to look any­where any­more, he imme­di­ate­ly pro­vid­ed you with an answer. He got his mem­o­ry from his moth­er.

So, if Ali­ak­siej has been work­ing for many years already in the offi­cial Insti­tute of His­to­ry – have your activ­i­ties nev­er real­ly inter­fered with his job?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I think they have. But the lev­el of his qual­i­fi­ca­tion is very high, and the high posts were nev­er an end in itself for him. The sub­ject of his doc­tor­al the­sis was “Anti-Sovi­et mil­i­tary and police forces dur­ing the Great Patri­ot­ic War in the ter­ri­to­ry of Belarus”. The top­ic of col­lab­o­ra­tionism was ful­ly pro­hib­it­ed dur­ing the Sovi­et era. The doc­tor­al the­sis came at a price to Litvin but he final­ly defend­ed it.

How do you spend your free time togeth­er?

Zhan­na Litv­ina: I’m awful­ly fond of pick­ing mush­rooms – but only togeth­er with Ali­ak­siej. We get up as soon as the sun begins to rise – it is a true rit­u­al… Dur­ing each trip, there is an oblig­a­tory excla­ma­tion, “Will you come to look?..” It means that you must come and look how this mush­room grows. If it is far away, I shout, “No!..” But it is near, I run to have a look…